Comments from Our Readers

I have been following your articles on the next US President. I am interested to get your experienced opinion on the following:

You have been using Tula Lagna though I would favour Gemini (8pm) for these reasons among others.

• Lagna Lord is forming Rajayoga in the 5th house of power and authority. As the planet is retrograde Mercury in the 5th house it shows her early interest into the affairs of children
• Jupiter is in a Martain sign influencing the 10th house from AL and Moon (career) and 11th from AL (income) showing her work as a lawyer. It is placed in the 6th house from Lagna.
• Rahu is AK, and in karakamsa conjoins exalted Mars giving a life as a career driven individual.
• 2nd from UL is aspected by Venus and Mercury showing her husbands illicit relationships, and also debilitated Sun showing the impeachment that threatened to break her marriage. AL is in the 12th house of rejection from the UL. (This is just not represented at all with Tula Lagna).

For the Dasamsa there are also important points:

Hillary Clinton (Tula Lagna) She is running Vimshottari Dasa of Venus, antardasa of Saturn. Venus is in badhaksthana in D10 and Saturn is the 8th lord and having graha drsti on the 8th house. Involvement of the 8th house can be terrible for career. The D10 Narayana dasa also looks glum. Mahadasa is Libra, whose lord goes to the 8th house from itself. The antardasa at the time of the election is again - the 8th house - Aquarius. All of these factors seem impossible for her if we take this Lagna.

Hilary Clinton (Gemini Lagna) The D10 with 8pm time is Leo Lagna. The Vimshottari is Sun, Rahu, who conjoin in the 6th house. These are the AK and PK, and both are lords of Kendras forming a powerful rajayoga. This combination was in the 10th house from Aries, which was the Narayana Dasa running at the time of her election to the senate. She is currently running the dasa of Leo with malefics at large in the 3rd and 6th showing her full power effort to win this nomination.

Michal Dziwulski
www.aimoflife.net 
astroveda@gmail.com
+64 21 2175113

Thanks for your comments on whether Hillary Clinton’s true time of birth should be 8 pm or 8 am. Regarding your point about children:

With the 8 pm chart Rahu is the Atma Karaka, planet with highest degrees, while in the 8 am chart Moon is Atma Karaka. In the pm chart AK is in 12th, having little to do with children. The house where Atma Karaka sits is also known as Karaka Lagna. Mercury although Lagnesh in 5th, is also 5th lord from Karaka Lagna (KL) in 6th from KL, a maraka house for children. Also the natural karaka for children is Jupiter, and at 8 pm Jupiter is terribly afflicted being with Ketu in the 6th from lagna, a maraka house for children. In the 8 am chart, on the other hand, Karaka Lagna is the 5th house itself. In the 8 am chart Jupiter is in the 10th—career—from the 5th of children, showing work on behalf of children, with Ketu, which the classics sometimes call the flag, meaning a flag of high office, showing one who works in a position of governmental power.

Regarding her career as a lawyer:

In the 8 pm chart Jupiter is the trouble-causing badhakesh (7th lord, for a dual sign lagna) located in the dusthana 6th with Ketu, a picture of violence. The 11th from Varnada Lagna shows professional income; in the 8 pm chart it has Moon, not an indicator of the law profession.

In the 8 am chart Jupiter rules the 11th from Varnada Lagna (professional income) and is with the Hora Lagna (what we value) in the 5th from AL (power as far as public image is concerned) and in the natural 2nd house (income). The natural 6th house which can represent legal profession is the 11th from Varnada Lagna and is Jupiter ruled. Jupiter of course represents advocates.

Regarding the strength of karakamsha, or the house where Atma karaka is situated in the navamsa chart:

In the 8 pm chart AK Rahu is in the difficult third house, and is in exact degree conjunction with Mars, which is the exalted sixth lord and which is not friendly to Rahu.

In the 8 am chart AK Moon is in lagna, a sign of distinction, strengthened by lagna lord Mercury in its own sign.

Regarding her marriage:

In the pm chart Upapada Lagna describing marriage is indeed in a 2-12 relationship to Arudha Lagna describing her public persona. This is too weak to describe the formidable union of the Clintons who were President and First Lady and despite scandal and impeachment remained married; he remained in office; she then became a Senator and a presidential candidate and her husband remains a dominating presence. But with a 2-12 of AL and UL, the one in 12th, AL in this case, is a betraying or undermining factor for the one in 2. Hillary is far from an undermining factor for Bill.

In the am chart UL and AL have a 1-5 relationship which is a link of power and continuity. Scandal is there because Rahu is in 7th from UL. But Jupiter and Ketu in UL show Hillary “standing by her man.” And not only standing by, leaning on. With Ketu there, what she has to lean on is sometimes wobbly, however.

In the Dasamamsa:

In the 8 pm chart, I get Cancer lagna for 8 pm. Whether the lagna is Leo or Cancer, Sun and Rahu, dasa and bhukti lord, are in an eclipsed state conjunct the dark Moon at either the dusthana 6th house or maraka 7th house. Raja yogas operate only when their components are well placed and in dignity.

In the 8 am chart, it is true Venus, the dasa lord, is in the badhaka 11th house, but it’s in its own sign, showing the gratification with a catch, lifting her to prominence and near success –so close she can taste it, so close she can claim it’s “inevitable,”-- but ultimately may drop her off the charts before the nomination. In fact Venus in the 11th is a sign of destruction from sibling rivalry—Obama can be seen as her sibling in progressive Democratic politics stealing the show from under her nose. Saturn bhukti began at the end of January, right about when her popularity dramatically downshifted. Saturn is in 8th from Venus. Saturn is 8th lord in 6th, which in itself is not a bad placement, but is in 12th from her dasamamsa Sun, not good for winning the presidency. That is the point, that the 8 am chart better explains her great curriculum vitae while also supporting a gloomy prognosis for her current effort.

Sat Siri Khalsa replies:

I’m grateful for the comments by esteemed jyotishi, Robert Koch, author of Spiritual Dimensions of Vedic Astrolgy, reviewed recently on this site. A common Achilles heel for astrologers always is the use of wrong chart times, which adds more doubt to what is already an esoteric subject, our beloved but beleaguered art of astrology.

Given that the coming to consensus on the accuracy of charts for which there is sketchy or suspect data (for a round-the-horn survey of this sketchiness, see further below) is a recurring thorn in the side of writers who would venture into the foray of public prediction-making, these articles emphasize techniques that require only 24-hours accuracy: Kota Chakra and Sarvatobhadra Chakra are counted from the Moon’s nakshatra, in which the Moon remains for a full 24-hour day. The jyotishis of old were certainly more experienced than we in dealing with “dirty data,” and their techniques simply and brilliantly leapt over the problem.

As for settling on the exact rising sign times I have worked with, far from being an unverified, un-fine-tuned and unrectified process, the exercise of coming up with the particular charts has entailed evaluating the possibilities using trained sense and common sense to eliminate the unlikely and keep the likely. Of course, some of this is subjective, and the “curse of the astrologer” is that no two astrologers will probably ever happily agree on all such steps. That is why those parts of the arguments are subsidiary, allowed in for the somewhat indulgent lavishness they add to basic arguments (again, see further below where I furnish more, not less, ammunition for doubters of chart accuracy).

To reiterate, the basis for the given charts, the USA chart is controversial, but the best, in my belief. The time of 2:33 pm on July 4, 1776, I am using, and the rectification of which to Aries navamsa ascendant is explained in the first part of the series, is chosen because the birth chart of a country should be found on the date that the common citizen has engraved on her or his mind as their country’s birthday, which for USA is 4th of July. The 2:30ish afternoon time is based on historical documents cited by Mark Penfield, among others, recording that the Declaration of Independence was brought in from committee and ratified by the Congress at large after 2:00 in the afternoon, which action was followed by ringing of the church bells in the public squares and celebrations by the citizenry.

Western astrologers have done some historical confirming of this “Tropical Scorpio Rising” chart, which differs from mine by a few minutes. Analogous to the pinning of the “upper limb of sunrise” to the moment when the birds’ and roosters’ biological clocks launch them into song as the first faint lightening occurs, the birth chart of a country could be marked by a spontaneous gesture like this. I don’t expect this opinion to be held unanimously, but its premise is clear, and thus good enough to work with.

The chart of Hillary Clinton has been defended in a long article by Marguerite dar Boggia (a former Board Member of ISAR [International Society for Astrological Research]), which appeared some years ago in Charak’s Astrological Magazine, and I apologize for not having the exact reference to the article. Also in an ISAR article, Ms. dar Boggia wrote:

“Astrologers are indebted to Marion March, Lois M. Rodden and Michael Erlewine's ACT mailing list for providing us with information as to the source of the birth data for Hillary Clinton, which is October 26, 1947, in Chicago, Illinois. Hillary gave her time of birth as 8:00 PM, but her mother indicated that she was born in the morning. The time of 8:02 A.M. works very well and it gives her an ascendant of 22:07 Scorpio [tropical—ed]. (Rodden rating DD) In November 1992, when Bill Clinton was elected as President, transiting Pluto was on her ascendant.”

An interesting anecdote about this time, which may serve to cast more doubt than it lifts, is added below.

The two common sense arguments that help persuade me even more that the 8:02 am time for Hillary Clinton is correct are (1) the Saturn-Moon exchange in 10th and 5th houses — how could this chart be a politician’s chart without a 10-5 link? Soft Pisces Moon (after 8:42 am) for hard-as-nails Clinton campaigner?? and (2) the Maharaja yogas for this Lagna, in which there are strengths or sambhandas (technical synergies) between Lords of the 1st and 5th from three important points: the Lagna, the Karaka Lagna (placement of the Atma karaka, in Hillary’s chart, the Moon), and from the Arudha Lagna. Lagna lord Venus is in Kendra from 5th lord Saturn, which exchanges with Moon in the 5th. Karaka Lagna lord is Saturn itself, in the 10th from Lagna while 5th from Karaka Lagna is Mercury in Lagna. From the Arudha Lagna the lord is Moon in 5th from regular Lagna while Mars, lord of 5th from AL, is in the AL in 10th from Lagna. This is a tremendously powerful conglomeration; however, since some of the individual components are weak — debilitated Mars, Saturn in uncomfortable first from AL, Moon in 29th degree — it is not enough! Someone else can top it. The other stuff, her 1-5 exchange in the dasamamsa, and the lord of lst in Navamsa Lagna in 1st, is just extra sauce. Confluence is confirmation of something special, but along came the Other Guy.

We are on shakier ground with Barack Obama’s ascendant, but the Moon will not change nakshatras until 19:19 on his birthday, so for most of this day we can count on the Kota chakra from Krittika, the Celestial General, with its fabulous placement of Kota Swami Venus in the central pillars of the fort, and Kota Pala, fort defender, Sun, at the outer ramparts, along with the tremendously favorable transits Obama is enjoying.

If we doubt the provenance of the data, we can still do some empirical testing.

For finding a Lagna from scratch if we take the premise that the chart of so successful a politician should exemplify the classical dicta about yogas for power, we can check (not clinching I agree, but educational anyway) to find which possibility is strongest. Testing Jaimini and Parasara’s findings that Maharaja yogas for political power involve connections between first and fifth from Lagna, Karaka Lagna, and/or Arudha Lagna, we can try the possible Lagnas from Aries at midnight to Capricorn at 19:19. Which Lagnas have the 1 and 5 lords in more trines and angles from Lagna or other links between the 1 and 5 lords? Notably, none of them shows overly powerful sambandh (technical synergies), meaning that this candidate, whatever his rising sign, is no “Strong Man,” and yet one sign clearly stands out as pick of the crop, and that is Libra.

Only Libra and Aries are strong across the board, but Aries lasts only from midnight to 12:34 a.m. and the Moon which then is Atma Karaka is weak at 29:41 or later in the last minutes of its sign. Libra is the stronger for several reasons, and Libra is the sign that has been mysteriously offered in the 13:06 time that has surfaced.

Finally, here is more on the chart time sources. While thinking about your comments, I came across this by Hellenistic astrologer Chris Brennan, which goes to both Clinton’s and Obama’s charts and even mentions myself connected to John Kerry’s birth time:  http://apotelesmatics.com/2008/01/06/astrology-of-the-2008-election-birth-data-problems/

Hillary Clinton’s Birth Time

Earlier this year I attended the NCGR astrological conference, where I sat in on a lecture about the 2008 election. At one point the subject of Hillary Clinton’s natal chart came up, and there was a discussion.

Towards the end of the discussion, an older woman, who was sitting off to the left hand side of the room, stood up and stated quite calmly and sort of mysteriously that Hillary was born at 8:02 am, and that the [tropical—ed.] Scorpio rising chart was the correct one. The unusual air of calmness and conviction about the woman kind of struck me as interesting. When I had done some cursory investigations into Hillary’s birth chart the previous Fall, I had come to the conclusion that the Scorpio rising chart was likely the correct one, although I was still perplexed to hear this woman state a precise time with such assurance, almost as if she had some sort of inside information.

A couple of days later, I happened to run into the woman by the hotel elevator. I was still really curious why she was so confident about Hillary’s birth time, so I asked her about it. Although I can’t remember the precise words she used now, she basically said something to the effect that she did have some sort of inside information and either she or someone she was close to had seen the birth certificate. She told me that someone had once told Hillary something bad about the sign Scorpio, and that was the reason why Hillary didn’t want to confirm the actual birth time, and that is why there are so many different birth times floating around. She seemed quite sincere about it, and I was kind of excited to get this sort of inside information. I thanked the woman for sharing this with me and asked her what her name was. She said that her name was Frances McEvoy.

Obama and Romney’s Birth Time

I was looking through AstroDataBank and I noticed that there was a solid birth time for Mitt Romney of 9:51 am, although I was slightly surprised to see that it came from the same Frances McEvoy that had given me the birth time for Hillary. According to ADB Frances McEvoy “quotes him,” which presumably means that she met him at a campaign rally at some point in the past year and asked him his birth time directly. While it was great to have a birth time for another one of the leading candidates in the election, for some reason I felt a bit uneasy about the fact that I was now relying on one astrologer for the data on two of the candidates.

Later in the same week I began asking around to see if anyone knew who the source of the 1:06 pm birth time was for Barack Obama. I came to find out that, according to one website, the 1:06 pm time was relayed by astrologer Frances McEvoy to astrology newsgroups, and supposedly originated from Obama’s own memory when he was asked what time he was born during his New Hampshire visit.

That’s right. The source for our birth data on three of our candidates comes from the same person. Unfortunately, I never got a chance to ask Frances about this because a few days after I realized that she was the source for these three candidates’ data, she passed away — on December 10th, actually.

Now, I’m not trying to say that Ms. McEvoy was putting out faulty data, but only that the circumstances were kind of unusual in that she was the main source for birth data on these three candidates, and there could be some issues involved with that.

According to another astrologer I know named Robert Blashke she was also the original source of the birth time for John Kerry prior to the 2004 election. From what I can tell from the AstroDataBank records, Frances was originally told by Kerry’s mother that he was born sometime around “sunrise”. Having only a general notion that Kerry was born sometime around sunrise she then seems to have played with the time a bit in order to come up with what she felt was a plausible ascendant, and she submitted it to AstroDataBank as an exact time of 7:10 am. Later Blashke actually spoke with Kerry’s sister-in-law by his first marriage, and she gave him an exact birth time of 8:03 am, which was nearly an hour later than McEvoy’s rectified time.

So my point here is this .... I don’t know, if the times given to Frances McEvoy for Clinton, Obama and Romney were exact times straight from the birth certificate, or if they were general times like Kerry’s which she then ‘rectified’ or adjusted somehow. When dealing with some of the more precise techniques that I work with, such as the ‘lots’ for example, even the slightest changes in time can really alter the entire character of the birth chart and any predictions that might be based on it. Even in Obama’s case, more precise techniques aside, the Moon is in a completely different sign if he was born just a few minutes before the 1:06 pm birth time.

We come full circle when you add in that when Kerry ran I attempted myself to get his birth time first hand as noted in the very same blog (!) by Chris Brennan.

Interestingly enough, there are some issues surrounding John Edwards’ birth time that are somewhat related to the previous issues surrounding Kerry’s. The currently accepted time for Edwards is 7:02 AM based on what some anonymous staffer as well as his mother said on different occasions. However, according to the original entry on AstroDataBank:

On November 4, 2004, PT talked with Sat Siri Khalsa who says that she attended a political rally in which she was able to slip a note to Elizabeth Edwards asking for the candidates’ birth times. Sat Siri says Elizabeth Edwards smiled, walked over to the candidates and came back with the note on which Mrs. Edwards had written that John Kerry was born between midnight and 1:00 AM and that John Edwards was born at 7:23 AM.

This source gives us a birth time that is about 21 minutes later for Edwards than the other two sources are. Notice though that this was one of the original sources for Kerry’s birth data, but the time given is totally wrong according to the later established data for Kerry having been born around sunrise, or at 8:03 am to be exact. It would seem logical that this 7:23 birth time should just be discarded as a bogus source due to the previous discrepancy with Kerry’s time, although as it stands now this is still ‘C’ data on AstroDataBank since there are inconsistencies between the sources and the accuracy of the time is still in question.

With regard to Sat Siri's very interesting and scholarly analysis re: Obama v. Clinton, some points came to mind as to why a clear prediction on the victor in this competition hasn't emerged yet. First, the charts on Obama, Clinton, as well as the USA are speculative and to my knowledge, no convincing groundwork has been done at the onset in rectifying these charts. Let me offer my opinions on the charts first, beginning with that of the USA:

USA chart: I have read various references between the candidate's charts and that of the USA. Doubt comes to mind, however, considering there are numerous versions of the USA chart, and some are even for dates other than 7/4/1776. There is also the opinion that the chart of any entity should be re-calculated after the first 144 years of existence. To take any one of these versions of the USA chart and make that the "definitive" chart for the country lacks astrological sharpness, in my view.

Hillary Clinton's chart: There are two views in vogue re: her chart(one giving Gemini rising, the other Libra), and I do believe the Libra rising one used in Sat Siri's article is the correct one. If it were enough, however, to see only the lagna and use rasi dasas like Narayana or Chara dasa, I could have confidence in the predictions being made. But when reference points needing a more fine-tuned birthtime are used, such as the Ghatika lagna (which rises five times faster than the rasi lagna), or divisional charts such as D-10 (the lagna for which moves after a period of 10 minutes), then I start to lost faith in the predictions being made.

Barack Obama's chart: Since we were told that a well-known western astrologer (whose name I forget just now) offered up the time that is being used, then skepticism as to the correctness of that chart arises also if no data verification work had been done first. This is especially so when divisional charts as well as special lagnas are used as analytical parameters, and especially when they are cross-referenced with the speculative chart of the USA. That being said, the Libra rising chart for Obama still looks correct to me. But can we accept the time upon which it was calculated verbatim, without going through at least some preliminary rectification exercises?

In my experience, if rigorous fine-tuning is done first on birth data, then much more confidence can be asserted in the matter of making predictions. However, if times and data are accepted as given, without any verification, then who can confidently make a prediction, especially using finer instruments such as varga charts, special lagnas, and the brilliant classical technique of Sarvatobhadra Chakra? In the past, stalwarts in the field of Jyotish have not had that great a track record in correctly predicting the outcome of elections. Could it be due to an overly excited comparison of charts, the verification of which was never done to start with?

In conclusion, I congratulate Sat Siri for courageously bringing to the discussion table techniques such as Sarvatobhadra Chakra and Kota Chakra. I agree, that correct or incorrect predictions aside, analysis using these techniques has put new life back into the explorations of Jyotish!

Robert Koch

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer
Author, The Spiritual Dimensions of Vedic Astrology visit:http://www.robertkoch.com 
Email: Robert Koch Ph: 541.318.0248

I loved reading your 'predicting the next president' series but was greatly disappointed when you caved to outside pressure (the media and news of Obama-mania) and second guessed your original prediction in Hillary Clinton's favor: http://www.councilvedicastrology.org/FA_President6.htm.

As you can see by the results of tonight's primaries, you were correct from the beginning about this week being a turnaround and a bad time for Obama. I wish you had stuck with your original assessment and never posted #6; I feel it would have been that much more meaningful. Oh well.

Shana Ting Lipton

I was disappointed to read your retraction on the Council's website concerning your original prediction that Clinton would win the nomination as well as the general presidential election. I thought your analyses were strong and well reasoned right up to the retraction -- and you were a "voice of calm" amidst all the clamor for Obama. The deeper shifts and connections were what you appeared to be picking up, and I've no doubt Clinton will eventually emerge as the democratic nominee. It is the behind-the-scenes power brokerage that will bring this to an end -- and it is Clinton who has laid such groundwork over the last 15 years. I hope you will go back and re-evaluate both the charts and the transits for the underlying, hidden patterns. I'm confident you will once again call for Clinton even though this goes against the prevailing wisdom of the moment.

Kathy McCloskey

Hello, Mr./Ms McVeigh, (I could not tell your gender, so I am covering all bases here!)

Vedic Astrology uses a sidereal, not a tropical zodiac. A tropical zodiac would indeed give him an Aries Sun; a sidereal zodiac, as used in the Hindu system, corrects charts for the precession of the equinoxes and so his Sun sign gets pushed back into the previous sign. It is a standard way of setting up charts in this system of astrology. Although Vedic interpretational systems are different from Western tropical charts, one can make arguments for both--Gore's idealism and environmental consciousness seem fairly Pisces oriented to me. The tropical zodiac (which is less star-based and more based on the seasons) works too!

As far as leadership potential goes, I agree that it is still possible for Gore to be elected President this year, especially if the consensus is split as it currently appears to be. I would point out that some Vedic astrologers don'[t use Pluto at all...some do, but the system was developed and is self-contained without these. But there are certain compensations for the outer planets using the lunar nodes.

I am cc'ing your email to Sat Siri, who authored the piece, so she can see some of your observations.

Thanks so much for visiting and taking time to comment on the CVA website.

The Vedic System is a fascinating system of astrology. We would be happy to tell you more about Vedic Astrology, and would like to invite you to join our organization.

All the best,
Gary Gomes
President, CVA

Hello,
Regarding the article on the internet, "Predicting the Next President - Part I" by Sat Siri Khalsa.
Al Gore was born 3 31 1948 sun sign aries not pisces as described in the section written about him.
And if I may, I would not dismiss Mr. Gores powerful and current and lonstanding Jupiter Pluto contacts, as witness to his stance against invading Iraq from the start and his group of remarkable successes including winning the recent Nobel peace Prize. As Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton continue to neutralize one another, its plain to see who is not only most qualified in both vision and experience to Lead the American people and but also who is assured to win the election vs Mr. McCain should he decide to accept the nomination in a brokered convention. If Al Gore accepts he will be the next president of the United States.

May God bless the Council of Vedic Astrology,
Sincerely yours,
E McVeigh

1/29/08 ... Your analysis is good. One important thing about Hillary is exchange of sani (yogakaraka) and moon(10th lord) this is one of best yogas for Tula lagna and currently she runs shukra sani.

The flip side is sukra sani dasha is tough even for a king/queen. Also sani in 10th means unnatural source of death.(rajiv gandhi had sani in 10th) It is likely she will win. But she will have tough times/tough decisions to make in sani sub period. Shukra budha period will be good, she will gain in diplomacy.

Regards,
Murty

January 2008 ... I have enjoyed your CVA articles on Predicting the next president immensely, though as a beginning Jyotisha student some materials are beyond my comprehension. Yet I feel I have learned a lot from your articles. Thanks!

FYI, It seems a new birth time for John McCain has surfaced (8:37 a.m., http://starlightnews.com/wordpress/?p=262), and in light of his surprising NH and FL wins, do you think this new birth time has any merit, and does it give him a better chance at winning the nomination and the general?

Your analysis of Hillary (as well as others) is fantastic and I also believe and hope that she will go on to be the next president. Do you use Ashtakavarga for transits at all? It appears Hillary has a whopping 40 bindus in Leo, where Saturn and Ketu are transiting. As you know, Leo is her 11th house from the ASC so that seems good (Yogakaraka providing realization of major aspirations and gains), and it is also the 7th from Moon, another career house.

But Hillary's Varshphal for October 2007 has Muntha in the 7th so there are a lot of oppositions for the year. Fortunately, Varshpahl for October 2008 will have Muntha in the 5th house with 4th and 11th lord Venus. I don't know if you use Varshaphals at all but they seem to be illuminating sometimes.

Also, since there are so many ways of looking at transits (planets from ASC, from Moon, Sarvatobhadra, Kota Chakra, etc.), to which method would you attach the most importance? I also tried to look at transits for the primaries and found that no major planets changed signs from 1/3 to 1/8. However, Venus changed Nakshatra to Jyeshta, and as you know one of its symbolism is the "the most senior one." So, I thought maybe contrary to the prevailing polls at the time, Hillary might win the NH primary because she obviously is the most senior one in her contest, and Venus is her lagnesh and dasa lord. And McCain also won. I'm not sure if this conjecture is too far-fetched but just thought I'd let an expert decide.

Cheers,
Leo